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Townsend, Lauren --- "Sticky Beak: Interview with Sir Gustav Nossal" [2000] AltLawJl 98; (2000) 25(5) Alternative Law Journal 258

STICKY BEAK
An irregular column of profiles

Interview with Sir Gustav Nossal

The following is the edited text of an interview that was conducted between Lauren Townsend and Sir Gustav Nossal at the Northern Territory Museum and Art Gallery in August 2000. Sir Gustav Nossal is the current Australian of the Year and Chairperson of the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation. Lauren is a member of the United Nations Youth Executive Council for the Northern Territory. The interview was conducted as part of an address by Sir Gustav Nossal to a group of200 Darwin secondary students during his week-long visit to the Northern Territory.

LT: In consideration of the decision handed down by the Federal Court in Darwin on Friday [Cubillo & Gunner v Commonwealth & Ors], what steps will you be taking in relation to the Stolen Generation?

GN: Well, you will recognise, of course, that the decision that was taken will come as a disappointment to Aboriginal people and, in particular, the members of the Stolen Generation. The full judgment, I understand, was 700 pages. As I have been touring Katherine Gorge, and watching jumping crocodiles, and talking to wonderful people like you, I have not had a chance to read the judgment, nor indeed to read anything more than a press summary at this stage.

I understand from the press commentary, however, that there are some positive features. It looks as though a fair bit of the evidence that would have been required to cement the case was lost and wasn't therefore presented to the Court, leaving the possibility that in another case where the evidence was stronger, there might be some finding of a positive nature.

However that being said, although I have not had a chance to discuss this with my colleagues on the Council, I don't actually think that civil court litigation based on an adversarial system is the best way to go in solving these problems. I myself would much sooner see a properly constituted tribunal where the rules of evidence were a bit different, and with a capped sum of money, as recommended in the Bringing Them Home report. If that doesn't happen, I can see the possibility of 2000 court cases gradually working their way through the courts at huge cost, and at a higher - much higher -cost to the taxpayer.

That comment aside, it is necessary -particularly for young people -to understand that if you read the Bringing Them Home report, the financial compensation is the least important thing that Sir Ronald Wilson talks about. What he really talks about more, is an act of compensation that comes from the heart, an act of contrition if you like - the apology. But the business of money is really the last thing.

LT: Do you view the role of lndigenous Australians as important in improving areas such as health and the legal system?

GN: I think the role of the Indigenous people is incredibly important. Of course, to date we don't yet have many Aboriginal doctors and lawyers. Of course, we do have some, but we don't have many. But it is heartening to note that more and more Indigenous people are going in to these advanced courses, and I think in a couple of decades that situation will have changed drastically.

In the meantime, it is tremendously important that as we speak of reconciliation we foster trust in the Indigenous community by whatever means we can. That involves really finding out what it is that they think, and what it is they want. For too long white fellows have been telling black fellows how to live in this country. It is time the black fellows determined themselves how they want to live.

LT: Would that involve the incorporation of customary law?

GN: The customary law angle is a little more complex. I have no doubt that customary law has its place, particularly within the communities. I am a little more hesitant to suggest that customary law replace the normal Australian law when it comes to the form of punishment. There will be occasions where a matter can be sorted out with the community and the law working together. But I think that when it comes to more serious crime we probably have to have the European style law prevail.

LT: What is the role of the legal system in your view?

GN: The role of the legal system is to create an orderly and civil society and I think the legal system of traditional law

-traditional customary law -is very important to the internal workings of the Aboriginal society. On the other hand, I think the regular law, if you can call it that, is very important for the interface between Aboriginal communities and mainstream communities, and I think we have to have the rule of law.

LT: What would be your preferred solution for the present legal system, and are there any specific obstacles that you might envisage?

GN: My absolutely preferred position would be a benign, tolerant and sympathetic mainstream legal system, buttressed by a vigorous pursuit of traditional law within the communities themselves and in particular, if I might say so, for dealing with what we might call more minor misdemeanors.

LT: In light of the United Nations Human Rights Commission, which addressed the treatment of Indigenous Australia, do you view this as an encouraging step towards reconciliation?

GN: That's a difficult question. I have, of course, great sympathy for my Aboriginal colleagues who will take matters to the United Nations knowing that they will get a more sympathetic hearing there than they might from the Australian government. On the other hand, I also have sympathy for the view as expressed by the Prime Minister, and expressed by the Chief Minister here in the Northern Territory. It is that the Aussies should really be allowed to sort out their own business without an unelected, somewhat pressure-group­ style committee telling them what to do.

So this is very much an on balance thing. I am not against the Aboriginal community going to the United Nations system to get what comfort they can, but I am also not against the Aussie authorities fighting back and saying, 'Look we are a pretty decent country. We don't need to be told that we are shocking racists and so forth from an anonymous committee coming from somewhere else.'

LT: Finally, what advice would you give Indigenous students looking to pursue a career in law?

GN: Well I think it would be a wonderful, wonderful thing if we could get more Indigenous students progressing towards the law. You know there is advice that comes in various hierarchies. The first advice is so much what Lorna Fejo said in her talk. The first advice is to go to school. Go to school. Don't be a truant. Attend the school. The second advice is to try as far as it is at all practical to complete school to Year 12. The third advice is don't be frightened of being a high achiever. It's a grand thing if you get the degree of achievement that will allow you to go on to higher education.

I am not saying that every Indigenous child has got to go on to higher education. Of course not. But if some can make it to higher education they will be the leaders of the Aboriginal movement in the future, and law is one definite pathway towards that kind of leader­ ship. You have only got to look at some­ one like Noel Pearson to see that. And another pathway, another very impor­ tant pathway, is medicine. Whereas there are only some 30 Aboriginal doc­ tors in Australia at the moment, there are over 60 Aboriginal students presently in medical school. So that is an encouraging trend you see. The situation is changing, and my advice really is, my final advice for young Indigenous people aiming to do law is, mate-go for it!

LT: Thank you very much Sir Gus.

Lauren Townsend is an Indigenous student currently completing Year 12 at St. John's College in Darwin. Lauren is aiming to commence study towards a Bachelor of Laws degree at the Northern Territory University in 2001.


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